Westside Gunn’s critically acclaimed album Pray For Paris came out of a creative stream that took hold of the Griselda co-founder during Paris Fashion Week 2020. He tells Rolling Stone that his new album And Then You Pray For Me, the sequel to Pray For Paris coming on October 13th, came from a similar artistic rush he felt this year.
“I didn’t feel [inspiration] like that since Virgil invited me out there,” he says over the phone. “I wanted to record again. I got the studio and I started making the album. Last time, I went back [to America] and it was Grammy Week [and] Roc Nation Brunch [going on]. This time, I actually stayed overseas. I didn’t even come back.”
The Buffalo artist spent several months overseas doing what he calls “super Flygod shit.” Living the luxury life, visiting landmarks like the Pyramids of Giza, and sharpening his craft as a musician and fashion designer. The musical results are a 21-track project that he feels is “a masterpiece.”
“It’s my best work. It’s something for everybody. It is enough to be a double album.” Westside Gunn says And Then You Pray For Me is the last project he’ll release with such meticulousness; everything else he works on will be created and dropped guerilla style. “I’m not saying I won’t come with a five-song EP with Madlib or I won’t do a seven-song EP with Alchemist or I won’t rap,” he clarifies. “I’ll do all of that, but making a studio album, I’m done with all that. It’s back to dumping until I don’t want to dump no more. I’m going to have fun now. It’s no more pressure.”
And Then You Pray For Me was created during a pressurized creative process that took place in hotel rooms and foreign studios such as Paris’ IBO Studio. The project showcases Westside Gunn’s most versatile sonic palette yet, as he notes exploring “raw Memphis 1998 Three 6 Mafia-sounding tracks,” a collaboration with Ty Dolla $ign, and songs with trap favorites like EST Gee, Peezy, Jeezy, and Rick Ross. “You got the new ill dope boys that are talking their shit, but then you also have the legendary trappers in Ross and Jeezy,” he says.
But even with that bevy of trunk rattlers on the project, Westside Gunn isn’t abandoning the Griselda base who helped popularize the label as a wellspring of traditionalist rap. “I got Daringer, Conductor, the traditional sound, the raw shit,” he says. “And I got a RZA that’s a classic RZA. Exactly what you would think RZA should still sound like—I’m giving everybody something. It don’t matter where you’re from.”
He says it’s a result of him exploring the full breadth of his musical interests and wanting Griselda to be considered more than “just” a boom-bap label. “This is when everything changes,” he says. “I don’t want people to put Griselda into a box. Of course, I cater to a certain fan and I love my fans, but as we grow, even in life, you want to experiment, you want to do more.”
Westside Gunn talked to Rolling Stone about And Then You Pray For Me, his relationship with late fashion designer Virgil Abloh, and his feelings on social media. The interview, lightly edited for clarity, is below.
What made you want to make this final album the sequel to Pray for Paris?
I made the first one because I was inspired by Fashion Week 2020. My song was played at the Off-White show. I got the first 327 New Balances ever made at Casablanca. I didn’t even go there to make an album, I [got] so inspired. I wanted to do something fly. I did the whole EP in two days in Paris.
This year, 2023, January Fashion Week, I had the same energy as 2020. I didn’t feel it like that since Virgil invited me out there. I wanted to record again. So I got the studio and I started making the album. Last time, I went back [to America] and it was Grammy Week, it was Roc Nation Brunch [going on]. This time, I actually stayed overseas. I didn’t even come back.
I wanted to travel the world. I went to Greece, Germany, London and different parts of France. I was getting inspired and I had the studio with me. This album is different because this is the first time I made the album with that feeling of traveling the world. It was making it the sequel because it’s the same feeling from Pray for Paris.
What was the most interesting place you went to for the first time?
Egypt. I’m a little older, so I haven’t been in school in a while, man. [Laughs] I remember growing up, you hear [about] the Nile River and the pyramids and the Sphinx and all of that. I didn’t think Egypt was… It looked grimy, like ancient, raw. I thought it was going to be more luxurious for some reason. But when I went there, I was like “this is crazy.” People can’t live in these buildings, it’s impossible. I’m watching kids going up the streets on donkeys and holding groceries at the same time. And horses everywhere.
The people be swarming you [at the pyramids]. I didn’t know how poor it was. So I’m over there with a fuckin’ $250,000 bracelet on and my chain and my watch and my earrings, and I’m super fly thinking I’m going over here on some fly shit, not knowing that I was about to go in an area full of [poverty]. I showed love to as many as I could. [I gave way] whatever money I had on me but once you start giving it away, one person sees that, then they start going crazy. I did what I could. I felt bad. I never thought Egypt would be like that.
Were you recording at the hotel or were you hitting the studio everywhere you went?
I have a mobile studio. I take my engineer with me wherever I go and we get busy. But if I’m in London, Giggs’ studio is the spot, that’s my brother. [And I go to] IBO Studio in Paris because that’s a super vibe. At first, I wasn’t going to go to [IBO]. My people was like, “no, this is the spot you need to go there.” I’m like, man, let me go see what it’s like. And I promise you, that’s my favorite studio in the world. When I’m in Paris, I book it to book it. Even if I don’t have nothing going on, I like to be there and vibe even listening to production.
How many songs do you think you recorded over that period?
It’s 21 tracks on this album and I recorded 22. When I’m making an album, I put every last song on the album. This is the first time I actually made an album and [took] one song off in my whole career. It’s because [after] I had did it the first time, I couldn’t find the session for some reason. When I redid it, I didn’t have the same energy as I did the first time. Then I switched up because it was featuring Doe Boy.
And I switched the lyrics and didn’t like [them]. So I was like, damn, I don’t want to hold this against Doe Boy. He did his part. [but] instead of me rhyming, I started talking super Flygod shit. And then the last day of doing mixing, I was like, “yo, I don’t feel comfortable with me talking this shit right now.” Because I was talking cash shit. It is one of those shits where motherfuckin’ Tupac came back to life. I was like, “I’m going to fall back on that, man. I’m not even going to put that energy out there like that.” I think it was my gut telling me.
How often do you have moments like that where you record something and regret it afterward?
That was the first time ever. I wanted to get a lot of shit off my chest. I felt like, “Let me say this shit right now while I know the world is going to be paying attention, they’re going to listen to this album.” And when they listen to this album, man, I want to tell you how I feel over the craziest beat. I said, “fuck it, man.” Because I’m at a different point in my life, for real, for real, and I see where I’m going and I see where it’s heading, and I think this is my biggest album ever, I think the hype right now is real. I’m working hard towards it. I’m a one-man army. These other guys got 20, 30 people. This guy’s specializing in marketing, this guy’s specializing in social media, this guy specializing in merch…when I walk in the room, it’s just me. I am the team.
Can you speak to how being an executive producer and a label owner isn’t just about picking beats for artists, but developing artists from a more holistic standpoint?
It’s a couple of artists that I work with that I have to be a little more hands-on with. But for the most part, a lot of people, I loved their music before we even started [working together]. It’s not like I had to develop them in any kind of way. I just felt like I’m the missing piece to what they need to take it to another level. And if I can help, I want to help. I don’t look at this shit as more like I’m the boss. It’s more like, no, these are people I feel that with the right looks, with the right backing, they can get the proper looks and the proper respect that they deserve. We become like family. And at Griselda, I always treated everybody like family because it started with Conway, it started with Benny, which is real blood. So that’s all I’m about is loyalty.
And with [Griselda artists], I want to enhance people what’s already dope. I go into it with production in mind. What’s the best production I could get for these people? Then I start going to the best art people and getting things commissioned and introducing… Basically link the music with art. I go from there and then I start thinking about the merch, [like] “Okay, what can we do? Can we do a collab with another company or am I going to design it or whatever the case may be?” It’s a whole formula I’m introducing that certain artist aren’t used to.
You referenced that And Then You Pray for Me is your final album. To clarify, is it your final solo album?
[This is] going to be the last album where I take the time to say “this is an album.” When I was doing the Hitler Wears Hermes series, I was doing all them projects like mixtapes. I was recording the whole shit in two, three days. I’m not saying I won’t come with a five-song EP with Madlib or I won’t do a seven-song EP with Alchemist or I won’t rap. I’ll do all of that, but making a studio album, I’m done with all that. It’s back to dumping until I don’t want to dump no more. I’m going to have fun now. It’s no more pressure. This album was pressure to me. I’m testing the waters on a few different things, but it’s all me. It’s not like I’m going out of the box with it or I’m not being me. I’m still me, it’s just kind of a different sound. But at the same time, I don’t know how long I want to ride for. I got so much other things I got going on now in my life that’s different. And I have new artists that I also want to break that are super dope. And I know they need my attention because [they] the ones that need the development.
What are some of the sounds and approaches that you are exploring on this album that you haven’t before?
On 10, I did “Flygod Jr.” I started the whole album off with a DJ Drama and Doe Boy joint [produced by my son]. It was trap. I wanted to test the waters because I already knew what direction I wanted to start going in. This was already thought of two years ago. Even though the whole rest of the album was a traditional Griselda sound, I wanted to throw that curveball in first, which takes a lot of guts. When your fans only know you for the raw boom-bap traditional sound and praise you for bringing that sound back, and the first thing they hear after they’ve been waiting to hear this album is trap, you got to be confident in that.
How intentional are you about wanting Griselda to be known for good music across the board and not a particular sound?
That’s everything. That’s the only thing I’m trying to push right now. That’s going to be my message and narrative, starting with this album in particular. This is when everything changes. I don’t want people to put Griselda into a box. I cater to a certain fan and I love my fans, we got the best fans in the world, but as we grow, even in life, you want to experiment, you want to do more. Not only that, a lot of times that’ll be [your interest], but you already got a good thing going. I learned just do you, man. If that [fan] respects you and got love for you, they understand what you’re doing.
How and when did Virgil’s piece come together for the new album cover?
When we were doing the Pray for Paris artwork, we was cooking up. We had our own kind of personal relationship. When I asked him to do the cover he was like, “hell yeah, bro.” So he [cooked] up multiple things for me. In the beginning, I was thinking, “yo, I should make it a trilogy.” Because he made me four pieces that I loved.
And I’m like, okay, I’m going to use these four [and] use the Mona Lisa one to represent the whole series. So even when it’s done, I have the Mona Lisa cover, [and] all three of the albums to be in that cover. But unfortunately, V passed, so things changed. And I didn’t want to do [a sequel] at first. I didn’t want to feel like I was disrespecting him. We was already in the middle of talking about doing Pray for Paris 2 but once [he passed], I fell back from it. But again, once Fashion Week happened in January, It was like V is here again, it was like he came back like, “nigga, you got to make this album and make it now.” It was that vibe.
I don’t want to make it a trilogy. I want to give everybody the art now. I don’t want to be trying to do a part three and bring out more artwork. It’s like it’s doing too much. This is Westside Gunn and Virgil, man. This is it right here. This is the finale.
There are other projects you’ve referenced working on that fans are anticipating, Flygod is an Awesome God 3, Michelle Records, Gunnlib. Could you speak to the status of those?
Gunnlib can be five, six records. Putting seven beats [up], bodying shit in one or two days and dropping it could be Awesome God 3. I’m not sitting down no more trying to be an architect. It’s just like now, if anything, I’ll let shit fly, go back to my traditional ways until I don’t want to do it no more. I’m not saying I’m going to retire. If I hear a crazy ass beat, one day Primo, will be like, “nigga here, this is the craziest beat I ever made,” and [it’s] moving my whole soul I’m not about to not rap and give it to the world. But I don’t think I’ll make another album that’s over like 10 tracks again.
What do you think you learned the most in the fashion realm during that period in Europe?
I’m big on learning quality. It’s been coming off on some of my own recent pieces I’ve been making. Because even with my brand [Fashion Rebels], last year’s shirts now we’re picking out the fabrics, we’re building out the silhouettes, and measurements. We’re cooking everything from scratch now. Before, I was getting Champion tees, which was inspired by Virgil’s Pyrex. I gave him his flowers for that. But it was like I took the easy way out. I don’t want to do that no more. That’s what I learned the most. I don’t want to skip steps. I want to learn, I want to build, I want to grow.
How much does feeling overlooked fuel your creativity?
[It’s] everything. When I cook, I’m making my point that can’t nobody fuck with me. I get overlooked, I get copied so much. Because the other person is more popular, people think it comes from them first, but they don’t even understand, it comes from me. It’s not like I’m going to hate. I’m not going to put nobody on blast, I’m not going to burn no bridges, I’m not going to be a sucker because I’m not a sucker. But it shows that I have to work harder. That’s all.
I probably got the craziest hip-hop resume of all time, bro, in the shortest amount of time. I got songs with everybody you could think of. I’ve been on Donda, Utopia, Mary J. Blige, which was nominated for a Grammy. I did songs with Sean Price, rest in peace, Prodigy, rest in peace, MF DOOM, rest in peace.
Then performed that DMX tribute, [at the] BET Awards. Was nominated for a Grammy on the Free Nationals album with Anderson Paak, did songs with everybody from 50 to Marshall to A$AP [Rocky] to Slick Rick to Kool G Rap to anybody, bro. The illest lyricists of all time: Black Star, Run the Jewels, Black Thought, Elzhi. All my producers have always been [the biggest names]: Alchemist. Statik Selektah, DJ Premier, Swizz Beatz, RZA. There is nobody I haven’t worked with. And I did all this in five years. And like I said, I still only got 750,000 followers. I don’t do no TikTok shit. I’d rather be me any day because I’m super blessed.
How did “Lost Forever” come together with Travis Scott?
Travis was like, “we gotta cook.” I said, shit, “shit, say less.” I came to Atlanta, I went to the studio. We cooked that shit together. I remember when I first made it was like I was in a zone. I was rocking Dior — that’s why I’m talking about Dior in the joint. And you see, they even put it in a Dior fashion show at Fashion Week. Now you see how shit work. It’s like me putting your references in the record end up making that song be the fucking song for Fashion Week on a Dior show. So that’s what I mean by the impact. It’s the same way when I say “tell Virgil write ‘brick’ on my brick.” The lines I come up with is so crazy that the shit be legendary.
What are the pros and cons of social media for you?
The pros is getting my art out there. Me being the curator, an artist, being able to put my art out there and show the world me. I don’t do nothing that isn’t me. What you see on my shit is a zillion percent me.
The cons is like…there’s too many bums that got internet. It’s too negative. You could do the illest shit in the world and somebody want to troll all day. I’m a real person. I’ve been through a lot. I don’t really take disrespect too kindly. That’s why you can’t really…You got to know that’s a fake world. It’s sad because even though it’s a fake world, you want the love from the fake world. But you don’t want the hate from the fake world.
[I’ll do] something that you can’t even think a motherfucker like me should be able do with flying colors and it’s an achievement, [but then] here you go, somebody sitting there in his mother house, broke, don’t got no job, hating and wanting to pop shit. And now, instead of them looking at positive feedback in the comments that’s supposed to be uplifting, you got to read what this motherfucker wrote because he’s bored. I come from that if you don’t got nothing good to say, don’t say it at all. What’s the point of you typing something negative? I’m confused. If you don’t like it, keep scrolling.
Do you feel like you’d be on social media if you weren’t a public figure or involved in music?
Nope. I hate social media. If it wasn’t for business, I would not be on social media. I hate it. I really do. I don’t even read the comments as much as I used to. I used to read them all. Now, I let the posts fly because people are going to say what they’re going to want to say anyway. It’s unfortunate because, of course you want to see the love. And like I said, occasionally, I still look. And the love is there. The love is actually getting stronger by the day. As of late, the love been way more than the hate.
I do music, but I’d rather you fuck with me as a man. I’d rather you be like that’s a good nigga, he take care of his family. He makes sure his crew good. He gives back to the community. Talk about that.
What can fans expect from Griselda in the coming months?
More visual content. Right now Griselda is about to give you more visual content because the music is there. We’re about to drop And Then You Pray For Me episode three soon. And I actually got a documentary, Tell Virgil Write Brick On My Brick. The whole first Paris Fashion Week 2020 when I was there for both shows, when I did the EP part of the album and everything, all of that was documented. Me talking to Virgil, everything. Nobody has ever seen this.
I’m thinking [about] the right time to release that real soon because this is history. This footage has Pop Smoke on, it has Takeoff on it, it [also] has so many people that was in my life personally that’s passed on it. Brothers of mine that’s no longer here or locked up. It’s deep, it’s real special. I don’t want to hold on to none of this. This is a chapter right here. 10 years from now, they’re going to be talking about all of this.
Was there anything else about the album or anything you have going on that you want to have in the piece?
I want people to be tuned in while I still have the energy. I didn’t say I was going to be in this shit forever. I want to do different things in life. I’m getting a little older. I got kids, man. My four-year-old and my two-year-old, I’ve been going so hard. They was born during that time [that Griselda was rising].
So I want to fall back a little more. [But] for right now, I’m about to flood the fucking culture with the illest art, the illest music, [and] the illest curations that everybody’s seeing. I at least got another year and a half of me steamrolling shit. You’re going to get the most Griselda music, probably ever, in the next year and a half because I’m about to go crazy.